Goats, or the “modern” wool bearing sheep. Goats were domesticated about 11,000 years ago, followed closely by sheep.
Sheep were domesticated about 10,500 years ago. “Modern” wool bearing sheep were known about 9000 years ago.
These were the first two animals domesticated by humans (aside from dogs). So which of these two do you believe has caused more destruction world-wide? Why?
This question is ONLY about sheep and goats. Do not stray into the belching of cows.
I’m an adult. This is not a homework question. I raise goats and sheep on my permaculture farm. I’m interested to find out how much the general population knows and understands about these two farm animals which have shaped the entire history of humans.
Bravo…first person to answer this question obviously knows NOTHING about human history.
Al Gore is a complete idiot only out to feather his own pockets, by the way.
Yee-haa! I’m very happy to see a certain M.D. answering my question, as I have not seen him post in a long time.
You dare not mention names, or risk having ones question deleted for “chatting.”
I’m also happy to see that I’m recieving better answers from other folk.
I believe I’ll add more details though, to see if we can get the ball rolling on which critter is worse..goat or sheep.
The Sahara Desert is the dirrect cause of the overgrazing of Neolithic hunters by goats. Goats also did incredible damage to many islands in areas like the Mediterranean. Goats have changed entire weather systems of the world, because of the vast desert areas they have created in Africa.
“Modern” wool bearing sheep lead dirrect to the advancement and “need” for humans to have the industrial revolution. The wool and lanolin (oils from the wool) made certain people wealthy. Wishing to capitalize on that wealth, and find faster ways to gather the weath, lead to industrilization.
The mills, and factories needed to turn all the wool into cloth of course lead to humans cramming themselves into huge cities, larger than ever seen before in human history.
Of course keeping everything running also ment a lot more coal mining. Most of the first mills were powered by water. Later they built away from the water, and were powered by coal. All the humans working and living in the cities of course needed coal for heat and cooking.
Not to mention all the “side” industries that would have grown, like railroads, and ships for shipping the wool/cloth to other countries.
So in your opinion which has been more destructive to the earth, goats, or sheep?
I should also add one more thing. The domestication of these two animals lead mankind to be completely at war with nature for the very first time.
Now that humans had meat, milk, and fiber on the hoof, the only thing that was important was protecting that new found wealth.
ALL predators were to be killed. Even formerly harmless animals humans might have previously hunted and eaten were the enemy. The first farmers didn’t wish to share the prime grazing land with ANY other animal that might eat what their goats and sheep did.
Forests were even the enemy as they encroached on grazing land.
Humans were suddenly at war with nature, for the very first time.
I don’t think the question has much basis. Sure, i’ve seen goats gnaw down a field to its nubs if they grazed there long enough. But destruction of the earth ?
Are you really so brainwashed by this often caught lying ‘green” movement that you really think a goat or sheep could destroy the earth ?
Seems to me there’s alot of morons in the eco freaks sphere that are making up their own definitions of what “destruction” really is. They have been just as Arrogant as Al Gore thinking that carbon is somehow bringing about destruction and this lying politician has somehow conned everyone into his game, which makes him rich as he trades carbon from one person to another. When did he become so scientifically inclined to set what the accepted level should be ? Why should anyone pay this baboon to trade carbon like some middle man ?
When you can actually spell out what destruction has actually happened and isolate it to one cause….then you’ll be smarter than any real scientist on the planet. This is why weather models don’t work , because man can not identify all the causes, man can not replicate them either. We have limited knowledge and can’t even see far enough into the future to accurately predict the weather, much less know what will happen due to one aspect 10 years from now.
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/agroforestry.html
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html
http://www.worldagroforestry.org/
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agroforestry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
Report Spam/Abuse
Don’t forget that humans are animals too. Without doubt, humans are consistently the most destructive animals on earth. It is only because of man’s influence on the lives of sheep or goats that either has had the negative influence you note above.
Having said that, of the two species sheep are more often farmed for their meat. Nutritionally they require more grass, so this means that sheep farms tend to require more land. Sheep are genetically engineered in much the same way that cows are to mature quickly and to taste better, meaning that their compromised bodies require a higher degree of veterinary science treatment during their relatively short life. This results in various hormones ending up in the humans that eat them, in water supplies, etc. Sheep are sometimes fed meal rather than grass; this meal may contain various grains that might have been fed to humans instead. In my experience sheep clearly require far more resources to raise than goats, so ultimately from a domesticated animal perspective the sheep would be more destructive to produce the same amount of end-product, whatever that end-product might be: live, sentient being, meat, or meat by-product.
Goats are hardier and able to survive in conditions that are both more arid and less rich with vegetation. Goats are more often kept for their sharper tasting milk in Western cultures, and for both meat and milk in Middle Eastern cultures where pasture is far less common. The goat’s digestive system is different than that of the sheep, allowing it to subsist in more challenging conditions and to consume less resources. Again, from a domesticated animal perspective, sheep are more destructive.
You seem quite angry about some responses that do not agree with what must be your pre-determined answer; are you simply looking for support?
Report Spam/Abuse
Range Maggots & Al Gore. Where does Bill Clinton fit in all of this? Oh yes he is at the Wal-Mart buying rubber boots….
Well knowing where sheep & goats have been grazed I would say that it is the human units who supervise the ba ba’s who have caused the most destruction to the earth.
You have the word humans in your equation so…that is my twist on this. Humans are the problems. Common sense has been lost with the citifing of the human animal unit.
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/agroforestry.html
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html
http://www.worldagroforestry.org/
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agroforestry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
Report Spam/Abuse
My first thought–before I found out it was only about sheep and goats was, “Well, probably horses have been the most ‘destructive’ at man’s behest, but with a purpose that could be deemed worthy of the plow.”
HOWEVER, since this is ONLY about sheep and goats, and if memory serves, I would have to go with sheep.
Goats are “browsers” with a very hard palate–which is why some people use them to clear thorny brush on land and even stickers out of yards. They eat so much that is unpalatable to humans, they got a really bad rap as “garbage disposals”, which they are NOT. And while they clear our land, they can give us naturally homogenized milk, some give us fleece for weaving (angoras), and even meat. If you work with them, they can even be pretty good pets.
Sheep are the “grazers” and can graze a lawn or field into oblivion if someone doesn’t watch them. Sure, they wool is great, and mutton tastes good, but they can be very destructive.
That’s my 2 cents worth.
Dawn
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/agroforestry.html
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html
http://www.worldagroforestry.org/
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agroforestry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
Report Spam/Abuse
Don’t know. But I’m interested in your answer. I can only say that I know we co-evolved and I wouldn’t be surprised if our relationships go back much longer than 10,000 years.
Have you seen this postulate – Humans occupied North America on a much larger scale than previously thought, possibly upwards of 100 million souls. That the plains ecosystem was created, deliberately created to foster an endless supply of buffalo. The very earliest Europeans triggered a pandemic and when the next wave came a hundred years later 90% the original inhabitants were dead, gone and forgotten without a trace.
edit:
Interesting. I never considered it in these terms before. Sheep – wool – environmental destruction – cities – industrialization. I’m aware of the goats and the isle of Crete scenario. Too much to consider for one question. But you’ve given me something to mull over. I guess the simple answer is sheep and goats didn’t do it. People did it. We would culture phytoplankton and krill if we needed to. Which we probably will the way things are going. Nice to hear from you too.
edit:
thought you might find this interesting.
http://www.slate.com/id/2217022/
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/agroforestry.html
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html
http://www.worldagroforestry.org/
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agroforestry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
Report Spam/Abuse